sounds like the HBO series "deadwood"

Good debate, but let's try not to get too personal. (Descriptions of people as dumb, hot, etc., don't really move the discussion forward.) Take that stuff to MySpace.

Yes, I was going to address "what's wrong with communism?" too.....uh, how about stripping people of their dignity and the God-given purpose of life, liberty and the persuit of happiness? Ask the Chinese how much they love being FORCED to have only one child, ask the North Koreans how much they love food-shortages and a muted press, ask the people... See More from the former Communist block how great it was to be shot if they tried to leave their beloved country, or how great it was to hide underground if they DARED to want to worship the God of THEIR choosing, not what the government told them they could worhip, or where they could work and live.....My God people, what's wrong with you?? For being so frigging "enlightened" you sure have a lot to learn about this world and the history behind it!

Why not 'unfurl' themsevles off Lincoln's head. It would make a bigger headline, since that's all they seem to be looking for anyway. poor banner:(

John Cutler and Byron you make great points! Todd, Peace Brother!

Jennifer, to paraphrase Inigo Montoya; "communism" doesn't mean only what you think it means. The Amish, or Hudderites as you're more likely to see in South Dakota, are about as communistic as a group of people can get. Do you see anything wrong with their practices? The bulk of your post would seem to suggest that you don't.

@John-Your sacrifices have not gone unnoticed and there are plenty of Americans (including me) that believe that fighting (or dying) for your country and freedom is the ultimate show of patriotism. Hats off to you and thank you.

You are a true patriot, John. Thank you for all your hard work and efforts to secure my freedoms.

does anybody else remember 1987?

John, I appreciate your sacrifice and those of your brothers in arms (my husband and father are veterans too) I apologize Black Hills for anything that you might have found offensive, but I get EXTREMLELY touchy when people try to defend Communism.....God Bless America!!

I'm glad this stream finally took a positive turn :) Funny how Greenpeace's main point, global warming, is hardly a topic worth discussing!

@John, sorry. I wasn't trying to whack anybody. Just trying to steer the whole conversation -- everybody's comments -- in a more positive direction.

Jennifer, again I've got to ask; what is it you have against the Amish? ;)

Lora, what exactly do you have in mind about 1987?

Toni, I agree that greenpeace is significantly composed of extremist idiots and that their stunt was ridiculous, but that does nothing to undermine the worthiness of anthropic global warming as a discussion topic.

@Byron, I think Lora she was referring to 1987, when Greenpeace tried to put a gas mask on George Washington. There's a story in the RCJ. http://tinyurl.com/lx4bch

Byron - sorry, I didn't mean that global warming isn't a topic worth discussing in general - what I mean is that it's funny that Greenpeace's main point is being overlooked because of the extreme methods they used. Serves them right :)

Byron- Uh, I think you need to understand something.....communal living is not the same thing as BEING A COMMUNIST! In communism there is only state run religion (if you can even call it that....) The Amish enjoy the freedom our country affords to worship God (thats right folks, they worship GOD) in the manner that they chose! Anyway, I love the Amish, they make awesome bread :)

Btw....I don't remember reading anything about the Amish taking dissenters out back of the Amish Kitchen and having them shot!

Groups like Greenpeace & Amnesty International pick their fights.They are very smart in that aspect.They will take on democratic countries where they may face a fine.Both of these organizations claim to be global.You will never see them protest in a dictatorship where they can be thrown in jail for a long time.Does Greenpeace protest the ... See Moredeforestation in Indonesia for the world's appetite for coffee?.No.In Brazil with huge tracts of the Amazon rainforest being destroyed?No.Does Amnesty International protest in Zimbabwe against the Mugabe government?No.In Myanmar against the military junta.No.Both these groups claim to be global but it is all a big scam.If they had any balls they would stand up to every country not just democratic ones where they face a slap on the wrist.I say to these two organizations;put your money where your mouth is.

Greenpeace tried to hang banners over Mt. Rushmore in 1987 to bring attention to acid rain.....am I the only one?

Nah, Lora... I remember well. It's one of those things you tend not to forget if you grew up in western SD.

@Stacey Hahne; Thank you! At least someone appreciates my argument!

Toni, I agree - it does serve them right!

Jennifer, it seems that I understand quite well. Living communally (in particular, economically; as Forest points out) is what communism, and being a communist, is about. That's what the word means, and where it comes from. There is nothing about communism, in the basic meaning of the word, that precludes religious freedom (of the communal group, at least). There is similarly no implicit necessity for communism to set itself up as all encompassing or ever-expanding; here the Amish again serve as a great example.

The reason you don't recall the communist Amish shooting dissenters is evidence that communism doesn't necessarily equate to totalitarianism. In case you're uptight about it (and to further illustrate that communism is about economics); this is coming from someone who is more than a little capitalistic. ... See More

Lora and Dan, thanks for the reminder!

Matthew Olsen, ah the irony... :)

@ Sean, Hah, thanks for acknowledging... I, too appreciate your argument

And being ticked at what Greenpeace did is "blind obedience"?

First off, look at the truth of, "global warming," basing it on your own research, not what activists say. Next, look and see how they made you believe this; how many actual scientists agree; (Not those whom were listed on the "report."); you will see why they are claiming global warming.
Aw, you say, but look at what's happening today! No, like I said look at the history of temperatures rising, the era, etc. Now look at who benefits, whose pockets you're stuffing from claiming global warming.

Ann, let's do those things, but let's also stipulate that the actual scientists are those who have expertise in the relevent field.

Byron, a good part of the scientists (Off the top of my head I believe 255) were not in total agreement or complete disagreement, some were not qualified, yet everyone was counted. Totally research and you will be appalled.

Hopefully Greenpeace activists get to spend some more time in South Dakota - in JAIL.

what was the point? If they really wanted to make a statement they should have put the banner on the Great Wall of China. China and India are 2 of the worst nations adding to global warming. Oh yeah if you did it in China you would be in JAIL! which is where these people belong. Can you imagine the people that had planned to come to the Black Hills to see Mount Rushmore and got to see these idiots doing this? Way to make a statement.

Ann, perhaps we misunderstood each other. My point about the 'actual scientists' having the relevant expertise is that anti-AGW is championed almost entirely by those without the relevant expertise. Here one might point out that the question of AGW is not answered by 'consensus' but by evidence and rational arguments. This is true, but those ... See Morewithout the afore mentioned expertise are dramatically less likely to be correct in their examination of said evidence or in the marshalling of said arguments.

Anyway, I've done more than a little research on the subject. What was I not sufficiently appalled by? I'm not trying to be argumentative; it's just not entirely clear to me what you’re getting at...

Just as an example of one fact: Previous warming was worse and was a result of natural occurrences. There's a lot of info, but little time to repeat.

Think the Greenpeace Banner at Mt. Rushmore had the wording wrong, it should have read "We value Celebrities, not Leaders" a.e. "our current administration"....

Ann, worse in what way? Do you mean larger temperature swings or faster rates of change? The former is obviously the case. The latter does not immediately appear to be the case. Your fact doesn't seem very impressive when examined too closely, does it? Any rapid changes will have large negative impacts to wildlife and agriculture; and by ... See Moreextension the economy and our lives. Slow changes (and we're almost talking geologic time here) in temp, even if they pose a larger swing, are not so catastrophic because populations react on the time scale of many generations.

As far as it concerns natural vs. anthropogenic, no one very sensible is saying that 'nature' is perfectly self-regulating. There is no grand plan, no Gaia forces at work. Temperatures can and do vary over long periods of time. The thing about the anthropogenic percentage (and it's relatively small, though not insignificant) is that it's the part we can do something about.

Full-blown run away greenhouse effect is a real, if somewhat far off, possibility. Check out the conditions on Venus.

Byron, in order to prove my point, it will take some time to gather info for you. At this time, I am going through a major life trial and also writing multiple books. (One year of our mishaps made the paper and radio stations. I'm about ready to publish a free read of all our mishaps.) Also know that I feel preservation of our environment is of great importance and we failed in this. I'm against those that lie, use our tax dollars, stating green claims, just to fill their pockets.

Ann, best of luck with the life trials and books.

No matter the 'cause', there will always be snake oil salesmen running their particular sideshows. There are no doubt a healthy number of such clowns that have cleaved to the global warming issue. That likelihood, thought, does nothing to address the central issue, would you not agree?

I hope that Greenpeace has lots of liability insurance and didn't expect any public monies to be used in case one of them was injured or stranded and needed the assistance of rescue crews to save their lives. There is a reason to keep people off monuments!

there is no better way to see parts of the Black Hills "I would never have found" without geocaching...Doty Springs, Ingersol Mines to name a couple

Found the geocache at the top of Terry Peak near the lookout last Tuesday while in town for a family reunion. Beautiful view of the BH!

There are hundreds and hundreds of geocaches hidden in the Hills for you to find. Everything from a tiny pill bottle right next to the Buffalo statue in Hill City to an ammo can on top of Castle Peak (and most of the other peaks)
Get out and explore! It's a great way to find old mines and caves, too. Your GPSr will take you right to it.
Be carefull, you might get some excercise and you might become addicted.

I sure wish I could still walk well enough to go see this sort of thing.

Another way to look at it is that it will also be faster to get people on the road and out of here!

I find it very suiting that many of the great monuments/tributes built by America are never finished (Rushmore and Crazy Horse are a couple local examples). Seems a fine testament to America's ethic.. And sadly, I suspect the Fossil Freeway will end the same.

Thanks, Tim Goodwin, for pointing folks to the the FS campgrounds. Good point.

I love camping with my five dogs, the seven kids, the three exwives, and my hand around a cold Coors beer!

I attended a lovely wedding there. I enjoy taking kids there to feed the fish and checkout the park......It is a charming and beautiful area. Thinking about taking the pseudo grandchild there soon.

Hail took out all of my beautiful flowers!

When I was a kid Willow Creek to Harney was an EXCELLENT way to put in some miles on a green horse. But from what I remember, its a really really rough trail. Be sure your horses are shod before you go!!

Just what my family is looking for. Horseback riding in the Black Hills of South Dakota.