As a reply to Zaim Ab's idea, I made a discussion here as how we can strategically defeat an already strong Wei country and unify China. Brother Zaim had already provided the timeline, started from before Cao Cao conquered Liu Biao's area. And of course the warlord is Liu Bei. Any idea everyone ?

A very tough question bro...

There are a lot of factors involved.

Indeed, Bro. Especially to remember that in that time, Guo Jia was still around. And Zhuge Liang wasn't there as well. I can't predict what move anyone would take if we make a fictional move. Very unpredictable.

But I think if I was Liu Bei, my first step would be to annexate Xiang Yang and Jiang Xia, build my army a bit and move north towards Wan city. While Cao Cao and Guo Jia was still busy with their "northern campaign" (in which Guo Jia wouldn't survive), I would move my troops from Wan City to attack Chang An, the western capital. While allying myself with Ma Teng and Han Sui, the next attack would be a combined attack from west (Chang An) led by Guan Yu and Zhang Fei and south (Wan City) led by Zhao Yun to capture Luo Yang, the old capital and threatened Xu Chang. Luo Yang was pretty much formidable and wouldn't fall easily and the next step (if everything goes well) probably was to pacify the southern Jing region and took over Ba-Shu. Then most of the central plains would be under Liu Bei's control.

Wu of course would be interested in the land of Jingzhou, so as soon as Liu Bei got both of the dragon and the phoenix, he should put Zhuge to fortify Jingzhou and meanwhile preparing an attack to the south and also Ba-Shu, while Pang Tong should be assigned to fortify the northernlands. Before Sima Yi came into the picture, I think it would be quite easy for Pang Tong to defeat Cao's army.

Like I said before, the only way to destroy wei is from the inside...
Just like the Sima family did...
B'coz Guo Jia and his fellow strategist have make a very solid foundation in Cao Cao era...
To attack Xiang Yang and Jiang Xia is one thing but to attack Wan, this is what make this war tough...
Although Cao Cao still don't have a great rescources at that period but he still can make peace with Yuan Shao easily so If you attack wan it will alarmed Cao Cao. Don't forget the difficulties in Wan geographical condition will absolutly make this battle a long one and later your army will be attacked from the north and south(Chang an). But there is a sollution to make your invasion to wan works. You should form an alliance with Ma Teng before you attack wan(after Xiang Yang to be precise).
Oh yes, please make an alliance with wu too coz' you don't want your retreat plan are cut down by Wu if something bad happen and Wu is too close to Jiang Xia

Nice to have you join this thread, Bro. It's just I need to straighten up some things first.

First of all, Wan hadn't been Cao Cao's until later on. It was still much more than a no-man's land after Dong Zhuo's defeat. Second, Yuan Shao had been totally vanquished by Cao Cao at that time. His only enemy in the north was just Gongsun Kang. Third, Chang An was still pretty much unstable and at that time Liu Bei couldn't use it well. Ma Chao did try and successfully took over Chang An with his Xi Liang cavalry unit that made Cao Cao quite desperate and had to use a divide and conquer strategy and made a dispute between Ma Chao and Han Sui. That means that until many years later, Chang An was pretty much weak. If only Liu Bei successfully took over Chang An and formed an alliance with Ma Teng, that would just make things easier. He could give Chang An to Ma Teng and when Cao decided to attack Chang An, Liu Bei could just attack Cao's rear from Wan, or vice versa. Nevertheless, their common enemy was one and the same.

Wu wasn't much of a threat at a time being, I think. Not with Cao's main army still up north of them. I think Wu also still had to consider the chance that Cao might turn and attack them, or maybe also following the path by invading the Xia Pi region that was quite weak after Lu Bu was defeated.

I agree with your opinion that the best way to destroy Wei was from its inside but IMHO, I don't think it was the only way. Not until later on.

Maybe before we give an argument we should give a specific timeline that familiar to everyone like the romance of the three kingdoms game timeline...
I used to think u take the battle of Guan Du time line coz' Cao Cao haven't spread his wings to Jing and Wan are still occupied by Zhang Xiu if I'm not mistaken....
he he he....
Oh yes, the history never give the exact power that Wu have at that time but I think although Wu keep their mouth shut at that time, Wu should have a great power. There are some fact that make me sure about this :

1. Wu are located in the most prosper area in China, the soil are fertile and they are closest to the international sea trade route (although it's not very developed like after the downfall of the silk road). This can make them a very rich country and very well supplied country.
2. Wu are supported by Wukou pirates(I'm still on a deep reaserch on this data) B'coz Wu often declared war on Japanese pirates who are nemesis to Wukou pirates. Why this is affecting on their power? first, Wukou pirates can protect Wu from sea, and it will reduced the cost that Wu must pay for protection and they can consentrate in solidify their forces. Second, Wu can get a new expirienced recruit by taking some of the pirates to join the company. Third, Wu can get enough man that are capable on naval battle not to mention they will get a lot of captain that are able to play a strategy on naval battle (U know it yourself that naval battle is not the specialities for most of Chinese warlords at that time)
3. Although Wu have a nice territory that are covered by steep cliff and rivers but Wu Yue is a large land and I'm sure they must have enough man to cover all of the gap. If they don't have sufficent man I'm sure all of Jing Warlords can tear them down easily from the south

Oh yes almost forgot, IMO Wu have a very good preparation to face the civil war in the following year although not as good as Cao Cao but we can see it from how they overcome an emergency condition like in Chi Bi

Hehehe... sorry about that. I thought the timeline was quite clear, but in fact it wasn't, was it ? I think if based historically it should be around 206 A.D. where Zhuge Liang's appearance is close by but Wan was still empty and quite untouched.

Wow...wow...wow... of course Wu had a great power. I also realized that but still the fact that Zhou Yu agreed to forge an alliance with Shu (historically) proves that they were nearly as strong as Cao Cao. They still needed some help to overcome Cao. For naval battles, they could handle it well for sure but for the rest, I think they're not so good. That's why (IMO) Wu's expansion was set very carefully in a limited motions since they're not quite adapted with land battles.

I think (IMO) Wu's power was indeed great but didn't get mentioned much in history due to its lacking power in land battles. Not much of China is water so I think land-based military strength is the representative number to calculate the country's strength back then.

Hmm...
I think that is not the problem ....
Wu surely had a great land power too although not as good as Cao Cao but in fact that power are enough to conquer Wu Yue at Sun Ce era (Maybe u should read about Ling Tong's campaign to conquer the south) and with this power they surely capable to subdue Jing Warlords if they know how to avoid Liu Biao.
The problem is...
Before Sun Ce's death, Sun Ce are still focusing to build Wu's military power to the best capacity they can reach, this power reach it's true potential at early Sun Quan age. Sun Quan cant use this power b'coz he still can't control his own parilament. His parliament thought that Sun Quan are stll not capable to lead so almost every work that happened on Wu are based to the parliaments will not even considering Sun Quan's will.
Sun Quan can used this military power after Zhuge Liang invoke his spirit by persuade him to fight at Chi Bi. I think that's why Wu are keep silent at that time and later start moving after the battle of Chi Bi. Beside, If Wu are soo weak, how come thaey can face Cao Ren after the battle of Chi Bi in such a short time?

True, Bro. Right on the spot. I didn't say that Wu's land power was weak. I only said that it was not considered a major contender for land battles. It was enough, more than enough I'd say for defensive purpose. But if Wu wanted to go offensive, I think they would have left their flanks too thin. And just one more thing that you should also consider. Sun Ce himself ever borrowed troops (land troops) from Yuan Shu with terms of The Imperial Seal.

IMO, Sun Quan was a great lord. He was also able to increase Wu's military strength to an extent limit. In my opinion, Wu wasn't capable of blocking Cao's escape routes at Chibi alone and needed Shu's help but later on, they managed to take over Jingzhou. That was a great increase in land power.

Another possibility that I came to think about was that before Chibi, Liu Biao was still quite a dominant power in Jingzhou. Wu had to be careful with this fact.

IMHO, it was Sun Quan's lacking of ambitions that left Wu silent for a long period. Or maybe also an internal factor like what you said. But I also think that no matter how strong Wu could be, in land battles they would still be massacred by either Wei or Shu, unless if Wei or Shu made a fatal mistake like what Liu Bei did later on. But the fact that in most cases Wu chose to be defensive proves that their land power is not quite sufficient and they have to move them really carefully.

Indeed....
Hmm...
by the way, do you have another plan to take over Wei?
Coz' I don't have any plan in my mind and your plan is not safe enough to be deployed he he he...

As a matter of fact, I do. But this one is an even more bold and daring stratagem. So I could say that my first suggestion was the safest so far, move with Ma Teng's help.

Anyway, here it goes. As Liu Bei, I would (after taking over Jingzhou) propose an alliance with Ma Teng and request for his help in eliminating Cao Cao. When Ma field his army to siege Chang An, I would move all of my troops (YES ! ALL ! Unless those required for defensive purpose) under Zhao Yun's command (and left the defense to Guan Yu and Zhang Fei) and strike Xu Chang in a single massive attack. Most of Cao's army was still stationed far north after their jubilant victory against Yuan Shao and wouldn't reach Chang An or Xu Chang in time. And as you guessed, Chang An would definitely fall to Ma Teng and with Luo Yang already sent their reinforcements to Chang An, it was already too late to turn tail to Xu Chang. Just took over Xu Chang, save the emperor and head back to Wan. With the emperor in hand, Liu Bei definitely had bigger chance in surviving the battles with the supports of the loyalists, such as Ma Teng and the rest.

(according to fictional sam kok) When Cao Cao is heading north, Liu bei ask Liu Bao to strike north... but liu bao is a chicken...

so all you said above is actually already proposed... but failed.
liu bei is WEAK on that moment, actually he dont have any army on that moment.

Cao-cao's defense is enough to take him, and anyway liu bei is stupid.

@ Candra :

Thanks for your info, Bro. But sadly that's only fictional. Liu Bei historically had quite a set up at Xin Ye. Enough to defend himself and make an aggresive move if necessary (not to mention numbers of great generals he had at that time). In my own opinion (eventhough no historical data about this), Liu Bei might even have enough power to take over Jingzhou if he wanted proven by the fact that he had enough power to even took over a much stronger Ba-Shu.

Maybe Lo Guanzhong who created the fiction version was also aware that it was the only right time to invade north, just maybe he didn't know how... I think...

If Wu win fight Zhangliao at (im forget the name of palace). Zhugeliang won't be sick anymore............ And shu still can win?

You mean He-Bei ? I don't think Zhuge Liang had any chance. He was already too late. All that Sima Yi needed to do at that time was only waiting and stopping Zhuge Liang's Northern Campaign. Zhuge knew he couldn't win that's why he was so stressed until he died of sickness.

I think zhuge died because WeiYan is disturb Zhuge ritual. After that Zhuge liang looks like became like have no power..

@Luthfi : Dude, do you really believe in that story?
It's a fiction...
Zhuge died in the Wu Zhang b'coz he is very weak due to overwork and stress like Roy said...
there are no historical records about the ritual....

@Chandra : Although Liu Bei was holed up in a poor place(Xin Ye), we can't underestimate him. First, he was backed up with many tallented person like Jian Yong, Sun Qian, and his 2 brothers+Zhao Yun. Second, the help of Xu Shu to estabilish his economical and military power. Third, the geographical condition of Xin Ye is a great advantage for him(about this you better checked the 2 invasion of Cao army to Xin Ye before Liu forced to retreat).
With all that+the support of local civilian Liu Bei will be strong enough to take down Jing if he coordinate with Liu Biao and he also be strong enough to take down Wan to set a stepping stone to Xu Chang. The matter is, He didn't have a strategist. By the time he got Zhuge Liang, Cao Cao is already at Wan and it will be virtually impossible for him to attack that city. I think this is why he remain in defensive position at that time.

@Roy :Hmm,this strategy will need a lot of aspect to be involved. IMO to make this strategy virtually possible it will need :
1. Coordination with Ma Teng : The timing to attack Chang an must be considered very well. Indeed Ma Teng had a great chance to take down that city but if you want to make Chang an as a distraction to split Cao Cao consentration you must move at same time probably 1 week or 2 week diffrent with your invasion so Cao Cao will really have to consentrate in both side
2. Support of Liu Biao : Liu Biao is Liu Bei's ally, with your strategy above I'm sure you trust Liu Biao So much. But don't forget that Liu Biao ever tried to kill Liu Bei although there are no evident but still it's an instinct of a human to defend theirself if they think they friend have a great opportunities to harm you in the next stage. If you can secure this, You don't have to be worried of your retreat plan being cut down by any forces
3. Good relation with Wu : You MUST make Wu think that you are supporting their campaign or they will surely cut your retreat plan or make you face 2 fronts war if they really invade Liu Biao teritories.
4. Ru Nan : I'm not sure about this but this might worth a try. Take down Ru Nan. You gonna need their wealth, fresh troops and a gateway to Wu so You will be well supplied and if you have a good connection with Wu they might think you are opening a path for them to central plains(could use their troops in case you don't have sufficent troop to take down Cao Cao if Ma Teng failed).
5. Sabotage plan : Xu Chang is a well defended city, the city are fortified by a good wall and nice geographical condition. Don't forget about the floor of that plain b'coz they are covered with mud and it will surely can slow your siege down(or your troops). You will have to make a good distraction by destroying that city from the inside at least it will slow down their military movement and give you more time to mobilize.
6. Large number of reserve troops : If a Ma teng was failed, you will be attacked by a large number of troops so prepare enough reserve to back you up b'coz attacking Xu Chang alone will eat much rescources.

If you failed on one part, I'm not sure that plan will survived...

Nice explanation, Bro. Just want to share several stuffs here.

1. Time coordination was important indeed. Other than what you'd mentioned above, let's not forget that the speed of cavalry and infantry are also different. That's also one of the factors.

2. I don't think Wu would dare to invade Liu Biao. They just weren't strong enough. So far they could just only went defensive.

3. Convince Liu Biao that he wasn't a threat. At that time Liu Biao tried to kill Liu Bei (fictional) because he thought Liu Bei would take Jing by force when he died. If Liu Bei moved north, I think there would be no problem.

4. Ru Nan was essential and could also provide a good camp before attacking Xu Chang.

5. The geographical condition would have the same effect on Cao Cao's troops as well, wouldn't it ?

1. Yes indeed, that's why coordination with Ma Teng is essential...

2. Maybe yes, but maybe no....
With Sun Ce at the throne we have to be aware for a surprise from him

3. Hmm, not really....
Liu Bei is really moving to the north but don't forget although Liu Biao is strong and have many smart people, he have right to be afraid about Liu Bei's position now.If I am Liu Biao at that time, I would think like this about Liu Bei "he is strong, he have a chance to take down the strongest man in China, and he soon will dominate the central plains. His next target can be Jing province! Now his back are quite empty, why shouldn't I march to subdue him before he become a real threat for me in the next stage? Beside Wu is not really strong and Jing is weak." Now this thought are very dangerous for your plan bro and this is possible....

4. Ha ha ha...
I'm right about Ru Nan, but the strike to Ru Nan have to be fast and efective or you can lose your momentum

5. At least they know how to get through the obstacle while we are new in that place....one way to settle this are coordinating with local peasant like Zhuge did in some campaign. But I doubt with Cao Cao great rule that sometime free them from tax, those peasant are willing to help you. Unless if you can sphread the news about Liu Bei's benevolent rule and his "heavenly mission" in Xu Chang and any village near Xu Chang.

Hmmm... Nice. But I doubt that Liu Bei was historically such an impressive ruler now, wasn't he ?

About Wu, I think Sun Ce would have been dead before that, right ? And with Sun Quan... I think he had some problems to deal with first.

About Liu Biao... that's why I stated that Liu Biao's grudge against Liu Bei was fictional. Historically Liu Bei and Liu Biao were relatives and Liu Biao trusted Liu Bei to take care of Jing province just before he died. Xu Shu in fact (yes, the scholar Xu Shu, who was historically only an ordinary scholar) advised Liu Bei to take Jingzhou for himself (much like Liu Bei did when Tao Qian gave him Xia Pi) but since he was a relative, he was hesitating and later on gave Jing to Liu Biao's second son, Liu Zong, who was, if I remember correctly, in Xu Shu's opinion was much inferior to his older brother Liu Qi. When Liu Zong decided to surrender Jing to Cao Cao, Liu Qi decided to run away with Liu Bei (eventhough SGYY said that he died of illness). So I think historically there was no problem at all with Liu Biao, in fact Jingzhou could be Liu Bei's in no time. It's just that Liu Bei was (in my own word) a hypocrite. And unfortunately Liu Zong wasn't much better that Liu Shan, a drunkard and an idiot, who surrendered to Cao Cao at Cai Mao's advice, eventhough he should have listened more to great minds such as Kuai brothers.

As about Ru Nan, it was actually a double-bladed sword as you said it yourself. You take too long, and everything will fail. I myself prefer a direct attack from Wan City. That's why I said that this plan is far too risky. IMO, I prefer my first plan after all.

Hmm...
I see then....
Although Liu Bei is not an impressive ruler still people who are still loyal to Han dynasty will run to him b'coz of his reputation as "Imperial Uncle"

About Sun Ce that is really my fault he he he...

About Ru Nan, yes it can be a double bladed sword but the possesion of Ru Nan will surely halt Cao Cao's southern campaign in case we are failed b'coz Ru Nan and Wan are a gateway to Jing province, if you can get them both Cao Cao will have to wait for a long time to gather his army since the attack need to be done on both side in the same time or he will try to drive Ma Teng out from his territory or he will try to convince Wu to join his cause coz' I'm sure he wont dare to attack them. With that time, you will have enough time to annex Jing if Liu Biao gone. With Jing in your possesion and Cao Cao still holed up in his territory you will have another chance to occupy central plains. So in my opinion, the key of your second plan lies on that 2 city as a stepping stone.

About Liu Biao, still I think we must be aware of him although he and Liu Bei are relatives. I just don't want the things that happened on the Yuans brothers happen to my forces....

If the condition are like this and Liu Bei have succeded to get Zhuge, Jing will be surely annexed without any bloodshed and this will be an advantage.

Your first plan are quite make sense but you will need a large number of troops and rescources. I'm sure you will have to push Xin Ye capacity to it's maximum capacity if you want to deploy it. Oh yes IMO your first plan is a plan with no return. If you are success with this plan, it will surely be a great blow for Cao Cao but If you are failed, Wan will be sieged from all direction and you will open a path for Cao Cao to gain Jing province easily, just like in the real history...
Honestly, I like your second plan. Although it would need many but it will cost Cao Cao many too if you succeded and it can save Jing for yourself if you are failed....

Hmmm... nice point, Bro. I actually prefer my first strategy because it would give you access to the northern territory while in my second, I would prefer to retreat after saving the emperor. That would leave us nothing of the northern territory. That's why I think the second one was a desperate plan only if Liu Bei failed to gather enough resources and manpower. I think it would mean nothing if we only got Jing region. History would just repeat itself.

Oh...
I see your mission then....
Well I prefer to stay at Xu Chang to surpress Cao Cao to the north...
That's why I choose the second he he he...

BTW, where can i find the history version of San Guo? any tip? thank you

WIKI

Nope...
Dont use wiki....
Too many Flaw...
Use SanGuoZhi.....
or read the bibilography at any KOEI's game....