We have a praise band in our church and I think they're great - they're humble, and they don't perform, really... they're basically just people miked up who're better singers than the rest of us - to help us sing better!
However I've seen some real showboating and bigheadedness in praise bands elsewhere, and prima donnas and power struggles and so on. Also I think some praise bands (being musical unlike tone-deaf-me!) get so caught up in the music that they don't notice when lyrics are completely meaningless!! Rant over. Thank you.

Because I love traditional music!

I think struggling churches too often think that contemporizing the service is the answer to everything. Not ALL youth/ young married couples want a "contemporary" service. Further, I think that have a praise band for one service and a traditional choir for another encourages age groups to stay seperated. It's weird to worship only with people my age.

I'm a church organist living in the midwest. I see politics from the pulpit and as a conservative individual, I say how dare these morons bastardize conservative beliefs and do it through religion through the most liberal means possible. Jesus held no office. I go to church to worship God and sing when I'm not the organist serving. You cannot adequately sing at these new-lifer services, you stare at a f---ing screen with words printed on it like a moron and then you just vegetate the rest of the service, that is not Christianity. Also, a lot of these new lifers hardly follow the bible. Sure, they might be able to quote you an obscure verse or two but at the end of the day, they deal with the Articles of Confession more than anything else. They are a cancer to Christianity and Sacred Music and the Pope needs to pull his head out of his ass long enough to realize this and announce that they are not recognized by the Vatican.

Let's all remember to keep it civil here. That's what makes this group work; when pro-praise-banders come in and start cursing at everyone and (essentially) screaming their heads off at us, our response is polite and unoffensive. Nick, I agree with 96% of what you're saying; it's just the way you're saying it is a bit harsh.

understandable. I did forget to mention that I was involved with two different worship bands. It was a blast to be honest with you, but the reason it worked was because everyone in both bands appreciated traditional services and often played regular hymns at least twice throughout the service. However, as I may have stated before, while it's fun, it's also not the way to worship really. Worship bands should be created only to add special music to the service once in awhile. My disgust is targeted at the non-denominational churches that provide a diluted form of Christianity and worship. It's a problem and that's the kind of church I suggested for the Pope not to recognize.

Because most praise bands annoy ME!

Because inane lyrics make me cringe. As do people who are trying to look or sound particularly soulful.
The saddest thing is hearing choirs who don't understand the "new music" and aren't capable of performing it, but seem to feel they have to try anyway. People who can't do syncopation should recognise their limits and stick with the good old songs which everyone knows how to sing!

Because I want to help sustain the amazing heritage of the church. No, it hasn't been perfect in its 2000+ years of history, but there are a lot of good things about its past, and we can't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Hymns are great for worshipping AND for learning about God. Most praise songs aren't.

Because I agree with the name of the group. Praise bands are more focused on their work and merit and 'I' and 'me' centered and not on Christ crucified.

I joined this group because I just can't get into praise music. It annoys me. Sure many songs are also theologically, poetically and musically abysmal, but even those that I can't level such an accusation against... they just don't do much for me, you know? I used to think I was un-spiritual for not liking praise bands. Then I thought others were un-spiritual for liking them. Now I'm not sure it has anything to do with spirituality at all whether you like them or not.

But yeah, praise bands annoy me. I'm pretty sure they annoy God too.

You are not alone.

If you read through the rest of the discussion boards and the wall you will see why I have joined...basically, the constant barrage of insults from people who can't seem to understand that some people don't like their music. The hypocrisy is unbelievable!

Apart from this, the sheer lack of any musical merit gets me going...lay clerks in a Cathedral, before the War, were paid a living wage and were respected professionals in the community, as a doctor is. Why is it that the art of music making has been studied and considered so vitally important to worship for thousands of years? Why is it that most praise bands disregard anything that's gone before and suddenly believe that their modern way is the way to go? It doesn't make any sense! To paraphrase a quote on the wall, they're not making worship better, they're just bad rock musicians...at a basic level, that's all it comes down to. They're standing up there at the front of a Church to get a kick for themselves. Whipping people up into a frenzy of dancing and shouting is not worship - worship is making yourself better on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday ...not just Sunday. Worship is meditating on holy texts, on modern texts, trying to understand and better yourself. Worship is solemn, dignified. How can someone jumping up in the air and screaming to U2 possibly meditate on the suffering and sacrifice of our Lord, curcified on the Cross?

Rant over! :) x

I am a voice teacher and part of the reason that Praise Bands annoy me is because they foster types of singing and vocal approaches that go against what I teach vocally. It is generally either the "belt" technique which is broadwayish (attention-getting and brash--not at all beautiful in my opinion) or passive (what has been referred to as promoting "vapor voices", better suited to using a mic). Besides that fact, praise music tends to be a lower level of musical sophistication--limited chords, little melodic interest and a lack of multiple harmonies as is possible with traditional hymns.

I also would like to express that, in my opinion, while using a visual display or just the words may be helpful to the newcomer who might otherwise be fumbling with a hymnal, it is instead a form of "dumbing down" as it is taking the congregation away from seeing actual notes and rhythms on a page, making us more and more musically illiterate over time. While a church should not be a stuffy institution which only accepts sophisticated or intellectual musical expression, we have gone too far in the opposite direction and have been duped into thinking that if we don't repeat our selves over and over, we really don't mean what we are saying or that the unchurched can't identify with us.

Oh, and I almost forgot...

"The influence of the erotic spirit is felt almost every-
where in evangelical circles. Much of the singing in certain
types of meetings has in it more of romance than it has of
the Holy Ghost. Both words and music are designed to
rouse the libidinous. Christ is courted with a familiarity that
reveals a total ignorance of who He is. It is not the reverent
intimacy of the adoring saint but the impudent familiarity
of the carnal lover."

-A.W. Tozer (1959)

Link to the rest of the sermon:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21806&forum=34&11

There being several forms or expressions of literacy, I would like to agree with you on the visual display bit. This is especially the case with churches that have P&W ensembles with praise music in lieu of choirs, organs and hymns. The fact that almost none from my one of my regular churches (the one where I am a nominal member, but you'll find me at the local Anglican church, singing with their choir) can read notes from a hymnal was just appalling.

On the other hand, I blame it on a very limited or token exposure to "sophisticated" music (my apologies to all who might take this as an elitist diatribe, but I crave and beg your collective indulgence on this matter), or a passing education in the said art in these parts. This in the age of near-compulsory schooling, to boot. A very limited exposure to music results in a limited appreciation thereof, a diminished repertoire, and a perceived lack of sophistication in musical tastes, a trend that is seen not only in ecclesiastical music but also in secular music.

I don't with a hymnal stuffy. In fact, singing praise choruses whilst clapping or raising one's arms is a more disconcerting thing for me.

I'm not against praise bands per se, and certainly not against more modern music in churches. But music for worship should focus on God not the performers. Praise bands also tend to focus on surfacy theology and end up watering down the Christianity. If you don't believe me compare "Open the Eyes of my Heart" or any other Michael W. Smith song with a hymn by Paul Gerhard or Isaac Watts.

Music for worship should
1). Seek to educate the congregation about Biblical and theological truths so they can be inculcated into them in a more palatable and memorable form than the sermon.

2). Like the Psalms focus on the range of emotions that one goes through as a child of God. The Psalms certainly offer praise, but there are psalms that deal with sorrow, supplication, and even wrath. "Praise" does not cover enough aspects of worship.

3). ALWAYS take a back seat to God, the Bible, and the preached word.

may I add one more function of music as it pertains to choirs

4). music should act as a cover for liturgical action-choirs should never sing when nothing else is happening because it becomes performance rather than enhancement of liturgy

maybe I should have added "liturgy" for my point number three.

But your point is well taken, forgive my seminary education's general "low church" approach to things!

For an ontological, not a psychological reason. I respect those who say "I can't get into this" or "I just don't like it". Trust me, I concur, but I object to this music for what it IS, not just how it makes me feel. Worship, after all, is not about a feeling but about an ontological truth.

This music embodies all the shallowness, the self-centered muckiness, the Britney-Spears-is-my-hero garbage of our depraved modern society. I am NOT talking about lyrics here, I am talking about the music: the aesthetics, the notes.

To put it simply, this music is an abomination. It does not conform to ANY of the standards of musical art. It is just used as a 'means to an end': like a machine used to churn out worship with maximum efficiency. Hellfire upon that!

G.K. Chesterton, I think, sums up how we feel in the following statements:

"It is of the new things that men tire--of fashions and proposals and improvements and change. It is the old things that startle and intoxicate. It is the old things that are young."

"It is true that I am of an older fashion; much that I love has been destroyed or sent into exile."

I do hope this has shed some light on why we despise these abominable pieces of garbage called 'praise and worship' music.

Well...
I am actually for any song that renews our minds to God's word, and helps us worship God in truth (worshipping with His Spirit is another topic).
I joined this group because the musical techniques of today's contemporary music is something to be investigated. (Many of you who know some music theory will understand this) Today's music incorporates alot of suspension chords throughout the songs. If you ever study, or just listen to music by Debussy or Satie who composed a number of songs built entirely on suspension chords; you will very quickly feel the effect of the suspension chords on your mood. If you listen long enough it will really bring you into a state of depression.
I believe that this is a technique used by todays bands to generate a "deeper-emotional" response; beyond simply to have impressed upon the conscience the truths of God's word.
You would be amazed at how quickly music can change and manipulate any mood, and with a special exception to suspension chords.
I believe that our generation is already subjecting itself willingly to many media avenues that play on emotional responses, with emphasis on depression. I also believe that our generation likes being depressed, and I don't think that we as Christians should encourage such techniques in our music.
Those a note to this point, I must also say that some songs can take advantage of using minor chords, and can have a somber mood. I am not saying that every song has to be major-chords and "positive." You can have songs based in minor chords, but again, I stress that suspension chords are a rare chord that such bands as Radiohead or Coldplay (for 2 examples) base all their music on. It is what gives the music that deep melancholy.

To go back to what Joy was saying, I wholeheartedly agree about the unnecessary dumbing down that takes place in our churches. My mother was born in a Mennonite colony in the wilderness of Paraguay -- rough pioneer farmers all of them, with very few possibilities for education -- but the Sunday singing was in 4-part harmony from the whole congregation. It CAN be done.

Compare that to the church I currently attend, with all its well-educated, cultured career people in one of the world's most significant metropoli for the arts... and where I have a hard time even finding two or three singers who can read music!

The world of pop music has certainly dumbed down the average member of our society, and this has many reasons (not the least of which are economical and political). But it's really disheartening to see where the church follows suit.

You are not alone in that regard.

I dunno, Ryan. I've been digesting this talk about suspension chords, and I'm not sure if I share your conclusions. J. S. Bach was a master of suspensions. Many of our most richly harmonized hymns are RIFE with non-harmonic tones.

Debussy and Satie on the other hand... I'm not even sure I'd call those suspensions. They use many unconventional chords, or maybe "clusters" is even more appropriate, but a "suspension" is something that resolves, or begs to resolve. The French Impressionists managed to create many soundscapes which do not seem to be in motion at all (no tensions that beg to resolve).

And as for suspensions in praise songs -- I'm trying to imagine a praise band NOT using suspended chords, and the result in my mind is music that is even less imaginative than what praise bands already play. I'm not sure if I can call suspension chords immoral if they put a bit of variety into one of the most bland musical styles out there today.

Well thank you for taking time to consider that thought.

Is a suspended chord, and a suspension chord something different?

I am talking about the Asus2 kind of chords. They just harp on those chords, and they songs all sound so melancholy. (It really reflects in our generation at large. Even aside from music, why is one of the most popular films "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind"? [Well, it may not be now, it has been awhile since its release], but we just eat up depression in our day and age, and say "Well it's more realistic". I don't even know what else is out now, but if I have a point here, then you should know that it would fall into this melancholy category.])

In my music theory classes in college, we "studied" Jazz chord notation, but we spent so little time on it that I no longer remember any of it. So I'm sorry to say but I couldn't spell out an Asus2 chord... is that like an added-ninth chord?

I'm really intrigued to learn what you're talking about. I'm guessing it's not the traditional "4-3 suspensions" &c. that we studied in theory class. "Suspension" may be a correct term to use, but since terminology in music theory is sort of regional and arbitrary, could you just spell out an example of the kind of chord you mean? (e.g. A "V9 chord" in the key of B-flat major would be spelled F, A, C, E-flat, G)

Sorry if this is getting too technical- it's really hard to discuss harmonic language without being able to include actual music notation or audio clips.

Hello Chris,
You are very close when you mentioned the added-ninth chord. The difference being here is that the Asus2 chord doesn't have the 7th or the 3rd. (I am just using the A chord as an example, this is used in all chords, natuarally.)
So it would look something like this: Asus2

A - B - E

Or the: Asus4

A - D - E

Note, that 2nd or the 4th in place of the Major 3rd or minor 3rd.
The -sus2 and -sus4 chords are used in place of most chords that you would traditionally incorporate the 7th chord (or some other tension chord). So you don't get so the traditional tension/resolve, but you get more of an all-around melancholy atmosphere.
Even in the more upbeat songs, you still find these -sus chords used heavily.

[*They are also called, for short, A2 or A4.]

It has been my long-standing observation that, in many senses, the Christian Music Industry is a safe harbor for the utterly talentless.

Now then, that hasty, quite possibly unwarranted bit of bitterness aside, I have noticed that praise bands are quite often "token youth" gathered out of a congregation, often lacking any real sort of musical talent or any desire to act beyond "half-assing" their performances. One would think that adults performing praise songs would be better, but they tend to be almost as bad if not worse both in musical talent and their tendency to focus entirely upon the stirring of emotions in people.

This "spirit-filled" worship paradigm is an abomination, really. "Hey everyone! Let's play a bunch of minor chords and repeat sentimental-sounding lyrics until people start getting alllllllll tingly all over!" That would be my (noted, Straw Man) assessment of it. It's meaningless emotionalism. This was damaging to me and to my spiritual life to no end when I was younger, and I have never been able to forgive Contemporary Christendom (note the "-endom") for it.

May CCM have an end worthy of its worthlessness! (Exaggerated statement of bitterness meant not to be taken seriously).

(Thanks, Ryan, for explaining; hopefully it will aid the discussion.)

Amen, brother!

Someone just commented to me that I would have loved the praise music at Mars Hill Church in Grandville, MI yesterday. Mars Hill is a mega-church, and the pastor, Rob Bell is becoming an international celebrity based on his talent for writing books and sermons that have no meaning whatsoever.

They had a lot of acoustic guitar and I guess the sound was incredible. It sounds like it would have been a great concert. I am a music lover and have followed and enjoyed CCM music since its inception. I mean as far back as Larry Noorman and Love Song in the early 70s.

That sounds like it’s a great concert, but is it worship, or is it just entertainment? If the talent isn’t as good on a particular night, is worship still going on? I can’t judge individual people, because I am sure it is real worship to many of those in the audience. However, as a whole it seems to me that Praise music is designed to stir up emotions rather than to give praise to God. It is fueled by record companies who push CDs and sheet music to increase sales.

It is often filled with irreverent lyrics that treat Jesus like he’s just our “good buddy” rather than the God of Heaven. A good example is that insipid "Our God is an Awesome God" and it's references to having "thunder and lightening in His fists." Sounds more like Zeus to me.

I don't really know about the discussion about the nuts and bolts of the chords and such that people are talking about here on the board. I'm not a musician, so it makes little sense to me. However, I have ears, and I think good taste, and much of this music has just gone down the tubes. It's not all hopeless, there are a few good artist out there. But this music is for when I want to be entertained, like while driving the car. When I go to a worship service I want to WORSHIP!

What is real worship? Revelation has the best picture of it. It is where the angels and the 24 elders cry forever "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!" Falling prostrate to the one who looks like a lamb who was slain.

It's not about what we get out of it, it's what God gets out of it that counts.

That is why I joined this group.