As I've said on the Wall before, I'm totally behind this project but the enforced use of the word 'probably' disappoints me. It seems too prominent, even if it is a legal requirement. Other promotions get away with putting "terms & conditions apply" in small print at the bottom, why does an atheist campaign have to have 'probably' as it's *biggest* word?

I know other people will have properly researched this but just for one last time I'd like to suggest that there might be ways around it.

The other day I noticed this big poster in a shop window in Notting Hill:
http://www.atomiser.demon.co.uk/misc/DSC00241.JPG

If they can print "WE'RE DOOMED!" as fact (with a disclaimer in smaller print underneath) then why can't the Bus Campaign?

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for your comment. Unfortunately, transport advertising regulations are more stringent than normal advertising regulations (for billboards, etc) and the decision of whether to run the ad or not is very much at the discretion of the bus companies. It's their private space, and their criteria for this (I know it'll make all atheists reading this bang their head against a wall, but here goes) is that the advert "must not offend religious people".

In their view, the "probably" gets us around this (and even with it, I'm anticipating that the Advertising Standards Authority will receive several dozen complaints from religious people and organisations). Also, as Dawkins writes in The God Delusion, being an absolute "7" on the faith scale (insisting "there is no God") doesn't make sense, as nobody can ever state this as an absolute. The alternative Dawkins proposes is "almost certainly", but "there's almost certainly no God" doesn't make for an overly catchy advertising slogan!

Nevertheless, the advert will contain a link to our atheist website (not up yet) with "atheist" in the URL, as well as the British Humanist Association website. I think it will get people thinking, generate debate, and make atheism more visible - which can only be a positive thing.

I like "almost certainly" - I think it does sound quite catchy.

I prefer "probably". It's punchier, and people will know what we're really trying to say.

Plus the artwork already looks great.

What Gary said. I am also with "probably".

Yeh I think people will understand that, like Carlsberg, the 'probably' is a kind of 'you know what we really mean' kind of thing.

I also support the use of the word 'probably'--it's more thought-provoking than a didactic statement, which will only encourage hostility. Probably is, for some reason I can't explain, warmer and wittier than if it were omitted.

Yea it is wittier, it gives humour to the advert and wil certainly put a grin on my face.

Due to the overwhelming supporting evidence, I (a) still don't believe in God and (b) have stopped arguing against the word 'probably'.

"Probably" because from a design point of view it is shorter. "Almost certainly" would mean making the text of the banner smaller and consequently less visible.

Since the bus companies pretty much have a veto on whether the ad runs or not, I guess that we "probably" won't be seeing the ads on Stagecoach buses any time soon.

Veto'd or not, I could see paint attacks by the nutters and that wouldn't make the bus companies very happy.

But I like the "probably."

I like "probably" too - it's inclusive of weak atheism, and avoids the tired argument of "You're an atheist, you have to prove that God doesn't exist!"

From a legal point of view I was wondering how the religious adverts get round this - http://www.flickr.com/photos/brokendrumphotography/2565961868/ shows an advert where they quote Jesus instead of making a claim. So I guess one idea would be to make a parody by quoting someone saying religion is a load of rubbish or something...

Surely that religious advert should have read "Jesus probably said," or something else a bit less certain than 'Jesus said'?

I have absolutely no problem with the word 'probably' being used in the atheist bus ads, but isn't the fact that no such disclaimer is required for a Christian ad a very graphic illustration of double standards on this issue? Does anyone know what the bus companies have to say about that one?

You definitely won't see the adverts on Stagecoach buses/Southwest/East Midlands trains because of one Brian Souter: the pro-section 28 fundamentalist Christian monobrowed nut. Fantastic group this is though!

yeah, it's way more relaxed. "We're probably right, so chill out :)"

Kind of reminiscent of "what's the worst that could happen", except here of course the worst that could happen is infinite damnation, and sharing an uncomfortable, wobbly coffee table with John Wayne Gacey, Vlad the Impaler and your mother in law, for eternity.

I prefer 'probably' too. Looks like this bus is 'probably' going to happen!

"God - Probably the most overrated deity in the world!"

There is also the case that "probably" means "according to the laws of probability", in which case it is just the right word to use.

No, no! " Probably" is terrible! But the idea is wonderful.
I've been thinking of starting an anonymous campaign, putting up posters on religious buildings, saying "This religion nonsense must stop!". I haven't started it because I'm too scared.
Hurry up and publish details of how to donate, so I can salve my cowards' conscience!

It's brilliant. Cheeky, and brilliant.

I wonder what all those people criticising the wording of the campaign have done to resist the resurgence of the religious right in the UK? My guess is absolutely nothing.

There are two types of people in the world: those who take action, and those who talk about those who take action. I hope, in the spirit (possibly not the right word!) of solidarity, that more atheists find themselves in the first camp than the latter.

"Probably" is just the right tone, even though "almost certainly" is closer to the facts.
The aim is to make people think for themselves, so sparking a train of thought is much more effective that throwing an alleged "fact" in people's faces. Haven't we learned anything from the mistakes of the religious fanatics?
BTW, as I write the 5,500 GBP target seems very near! Well done!

"Probably" is respectable, and ought to be treated as such. We are not supposed to be the group hiding behind false claims to certainty or obfuscations about what we really know. The essence of scientific and engineering technical writing is to state only what one knows, and I think our use of language should reflect that. "There's very definitely a very slight chance you are wrong, so our Book is the Truth" shouldn't be that hard an argument to shoot down if it arises.

If I owned a bus you could put a "God Doesnt Exist" slogan on it,no problem....Now I'll shuffle off and see if I can get a bus for 18 quid,cos thats all I've got till Friday!!!

Totally 100% behind this campaign..I've donated and set up a flickr group to post piccies of the buses when they arrive (but knowing british buses you won't see one for a while and 30 will come at once !!)

Check out http://www.flickr.com/groups/atheistbus/

I think we need a dutch version of this campaign here in The Netherlands !

Oh, borrocks, as they say in Tokyo. I just set one up for design material. Honestly, like herding cats...

Probably the best ad in the world....

Wow. That sounds awful. That's just turning the whole idea into an attack, which is not what this campaign is about. From what I gather, this campaign's purpose is to invite people to think about what they really believe; what matters most - their doctrines (which are probably false and often lead to terrible things such as intolerance and war) or just appreciating their life for what it is. Which is why I'm in favour of 'probably'. The majority of religious people out there are wonderful, kind, caring people who happen to have different beliefs to you. To go around, basically vandalising their buildings, is not acceptable. It's cruel and intolerant. Like religion. Atheism is a kind of religion if you think about it.

What I'm trying to say is "can't we all just get along?" (with sugar and rainbows and bunny rabbits...)

Oh dear, I just wrote an email to the company advertising Jesus on London buses (www.jesussaid.org) telling them I didn't like their campaign.
It'll be interesting to see if they reply!

I'm sure they'll forgive you.