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                        "text": "I agree with the idea of 'Literature\"being largely determined by whatever content we value as a culture and that this is for the most part highly subjective. I would also contend that a lot of the canon of our literature is present due to conditioned cultural values which have been passed on through many years, I doubt for example that there are many people in the anglophone world who have not been exposed to Shakespeare in their youth and explicitly taught it's value repeatedly through schooling. That you would have expected even the idea of discarding the Bard to elicit a vigorous response is a sure sign of how well this conditioning has worked. That is not to say that his work doesn't deserve a place amongst the Canon, they certainly do, but that its quality alone does not guarantee its place in our hearts. One thing that this video reminded me on is the 2003 sci-fi short story \"Dear Abbey\" by Terry Bisson. There is a lot in it but in one part of the story there is a conversation with two people from the far future. The say that they are studying literature but when asked if they write anything themselves they claim that it would be pointless since there is so much literature out there, everything has already been done, and much better then they could do it. For me, this idea was very dystopian, the image of a vast canon of must read literature sucking up all the time that a reader may have and preventing new writers from even having the possibility of taking part. What could possibly be lost or never be in such a world. Perhaps your idea of a dystopian sci-fi novel may work with a slight tweak. Maybe they could have a choice to get rid of Shakespeare, but if they keep him, they'll never be able to write something new ever again."
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                        "text": "I agree with the idea of 'Literature\"being largely determined by whatever content we value as a culture and that this is for the most part highly subjective. I would also contend that a lot of the canon of our literature is present due to conditioned cultural values which have been passed on through many years, I doubt for example that there are many people in the anglophone world who have not been exposed to Shakespeare in their youth and explicitly taught it's value repeatedly through schooling. That you would have expected even the idea of discarding the Bard to elicit a vigorous response is a sure sign of how well this conditioning has worked. That is not to say that his work doesn't deserve a place amongst the Canon, they certainly do, but that its quality alone does not guarantee its place in our hearts. One thing that this video reminded me on is the 2003 sci-fi short story \"Dear Abbey\" by Terry Bisson. There is a lot in it but in one part of the story there is a conversation with two people from the far future. The say that they are studying literature but when asked if they write anything themselves they claim that it would be pointless since there is so much literature out there, everything has already been done, and much better then they could do it. For me, this idea was very dystopian, the image of a vast canon of must read literature sucking up all the time that a reader may have and preventing new writers from even having the possibility of taking part. What could possibly be lost or never be in such a world. Perhaps your idea of a dystopian sci-fi novel may work with a slight tweak. Maybe they could have a choice to get rid of Shakespeare, but if they keep him, they'll never be able to write something new ever again.",
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                        "text": "(Sorry, long post!)\nMy thoughts...\n1. I think it's not an \"either or\" question. The definition of literature changes over time because people change, so of course it is absolutely subjective--but it also changes because often what we call literature proved to stand the test of time and it has historic value (it gives a glimpse of the world and thoughts of people before us). Moby Dick and Uncle Tom's Cabin, actually most works we consider literature today, were not recognized as such at their time.\n2. I kind of missed a remark about the literary canon. The canon is usually what is considered \"literature,\" and the canon very much consisted of white men for a long time. Obvious example of how changing worldviews also alter our perspective. \n3. What do you mean by \"ordinary\" text? And do you really think The Old Man and the Sea is ordinary/straightforward? Sure, it's not Joyce, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have any depths to it. And I think that is what we are looking for in literature. We are always interested in a well-crafted story, in terms of plot and form. For something to be well-crafted it doesn't have to be Joyce on the scale of level of difficulty, but there is some level of craftsmanship involved.\n4. So sure, music can be considered literature, but not any kind of song is literature/poetry.\n5. And I do think we should keep a distinction between literature and anything written, because (A) not everything written is literature, but is certainly a text that has some kind of narrative dimension, and (B) literature today includes oral traditions. It is hard to draw lines. However, these distinctions are important because they highlight nuances. We shouldn't conflate everything. \n\nI have some objections regarding the fact  that it was Dylan who got the prize, but it's less about the fact that he is a musician."
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                        "text": "(Sorry, long post!)\nMy thoughts...\n1. I think it's not an \"either or\" question. The definition of literature changes over time because people change, so of course it is absolutely subjective--but it also changes because often what we call literature proved to stand the test of time and it has historic value (it gives a glimpse of the world and thoughts of people before us). Moby Dick and Uncle Tom's Cabin, actually most works we consider literature today, were not recognized as such at their time.\n2. I kind of missed a remark about the literary canon. The canon is usually what is considered \"literature,\" and the canon very much consisted of white men for a long time. Obvious example of how changing worldviews also alter our perspective. \n3. What do you mean by \"ordinary\" text? And do you really think The Old Man and the Sea is ordinary/straightforward? Sure, it's not Joyce, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have any depths to it. And I think that is what we are looking for in literature. We are always interested in a well-crafted story, in terms of plot and form. For something to be well-crafted it doesn't have to be Joyce on the scale of level of difficulty, but there is some level of craftsmanship involved.\n4. So sure, music can be considered literature, but not any kind of song is literature/poetry.\n5. And I do think we should keep a distinction between literature and anything written, because (A) not everything written is literature, but is certainly a text that has some kind of narrative dimension, and (B) literature today includes oral traditions. It is hard to draw lines. However, these distinctions are important because they highlight nuances. We shouldn't conflate everything. \n\nI have some objections regarding the fact  that it was Dylan who got the prize, but it's less about the fact that he is a musician.",
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                        "text": "I actually got into a very similar conversation about the definition of religion (trying to find a definition that was basic enough to cover all that it could).\n\nI think that at the most basic level, anything that is written down could be called literature. But for the purposes of awards and what is culturally valued, such a basic definition is not useful\u2026at first glance. There would have to be some additional criteria. However whatever those criteria happen to be, if they were written down you would have instances where things that should be literature, aren\u2019t, and things that should not be, are.\n\nSuch criteria as \u201cimpact\u201d are also troubling because it asks the award givers to use a number or other such metric. Even having an argument/debate/conversation is also somewhat problematic because it asks those who are affected by a piece of literature to defend the \u201cliteral\u201d fact that they were affected\u2026which would not be debatable.\n\nPerhaps what is necessary to determine what is literature is to go back to the earlier idea that all written \u201cstuff\u201d is literature\u2026but not all of pieces of literature are worthy of awards. The awards themselves can have specific criteria, methodologies, or points of view\u2026They could add weight to whether or not something could be considered Great Literature or not.\n\nI suppose this takes a modified view of the Pixar\u2019s Ratatouille approach: Literature can come from anything\u2026but not all literature is Great."
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                        "text": "I actually got into a very similar conversation about the definition of religion (trying to find a definition that was basic enough to cover all that it could).\n\nI think that at the most basic level, anything that is written down could be called literature. But for the purposes of awards and what is culturally valued, such a basic definition is not useful\u2026at first glance. There would have to be some additional criteria. However whatever those criteria happen to be, if they were written down you would have instances where things that should be literature, aren\u2019t, and things that should not be, are.\n\nSuch criteria as \u201cimpact\u201d are also troubling because it asks the award givers to use a number or other such metric. Even having an argument/debate/conversation is also somewhat problematic because it asks those who are affected by a piece of literature to defend the \u201cliteral\u201d fact that they were affected\u2026which would not be debatable.\n\nPerhaps what is necessary to determine what is literature is to go back to the earlier idea that all written \u201cstuff\u201d is literature\u2026but not all of pieces of literature are worthy of awards. The awards themselves can have specific criteria, methodologies, or points of view\u2026They could add weight to whether or not something could be considered Great Literature or not.\n\nI suppose this takes a modified view of the Pixar\u2019s Ratatouille approach: Literature can come from anything\u2026but not all literature is Great.",
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