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                        "text": "Alexa Raine I am not forming the terms of a peace deal when the time comes that can be dealt with. I am also not calling for Palestinian military control or police presence in any land where that isn't already the case today. I am calling for the removal of civilians and civilians only from outside the settlement blocs. I am calling for that land to be moved under the category of area B. Palestinians can live there and the government can have Civic control over the area but the IDF will maintain control of all civilian aspects and policing. It will cut the number of checkpoints and increase the amount of farming land. Next having spent time in Efrat a moderate settlement. I am convinced they are living under siege mentality, they wouldn't know what peace actually was if it hit them in the face. 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One of the settlments Har Bracha if I'm not mistaken considered landmining the road to their settlement to prevent their removal. But ultimately the idea of loyalty to the state is presented by two Rabbis. When the UN voted for the partition plan and the existence of a jewish state, Rav Yehuda Amital went into the street and danced yet Rav Zvi Yehuda Kook cried bitterly and refused to go out to dance because of the partition of the land. Ultimately the secular Jewish leaders who did not take in Halachic considerations had chosen to partition the land. Even though the majority of Rabbis at the time had approved of partition, Rav Kook was bitterly against. He couldn't understand that no one was dancing over partition, they were dancing over the fulfilment of Herzl's dream. Rav Kook was unable to connect to the possibility of a secular state. 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                        "text": "Alexa Raine I am not forming the terms of a peace deal when the time comes that can be dealt with. I am also not calling for Palestinian military control or police presence in any land where that isn't already the case today. I am calling for the removal of civilians and civilians only from outside the settlement blocs. I am calling for that land to be moved under the category of area B. Palestinians can live there and the government can have Civic control over the area but the IDF will maintain control of all civilian aspects and policing. It will cut the number of checkpoints and increase the amount of farming land. Next having spent time in Efrat a moderate settlement. I am convinced they are living under siege mentality, they wouldn't know what peace actually was if it hit them in the face. I am fully convinced that people in Efrat see themselves as good and loving people and therefore are incapable of seeing the way there presence rubs off on the surrounding Palestinians. And by the way most of the people in Efrat are good loving people. Yes 35\u0025 of young Palestinians are devout Muslims who pray more then one time a week, but that number is decreasing and it used to be over 70\u0025. Many of them may have religious objections to Israels existence. But you also have 45\u0025 of Palestinians who legitimately want peace. Yes they have no power, but we need to be doing everything possible to make that number grow. Lastly your first statement, when Oslo was being negotiated the leadership of numerous settlements sent in letters to Rabbis asking what was permissable to undemocratically get rid of Rabin, out of the 11 Rabbis they asked, only one Yoel Ben Nun said it was explicitly forbidden. 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Living in the land is also important to me. But as hard as evacuating settlements would be to me, it has to be done. Lastly peace is relative, the lives of soldiers are being put in danger for a goal whose importance is disputed and subjective. While casualties are in the nature of war, we can also choose our battles and they are not reflections of the goals for which war might be waged. Hence we can make conscientious decisions, for where and under what circumstances war should be waged and soldiers sacrificed. In that case where soldiers lives are involved and extremist ideology is put to bed I'd vastly prefer more people on less land then less people on more land.",
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                        "text": "Of course Israel needs a secure state including Jordan Valley, the majority of the current settlements, an unified Jerusalem and the Golan Hights.  But One State with the Palestians will be a bloody illusion from the inside and lead to an apartheid state which will collapse to the outnumbering from the Jews by the Palestians on the long term.  The problem is that 2 States can be an option but isn't at the moment.  Of course Gaza needs to be silenced.  The plan of Ganz-Lapid offers a good strategy instead of Netanyahu who lets in suitcases of money and doesn't stop the suffering at the border.  The high cost of the Center is a scandal and partly due to the policies of Netanyahu.  Living in the Center is expensive but not alwaus a choice.  The cost of living in the, Center was 10 years ago much lower.   That said, it's a good policy to spread the people more if the country."
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                        "text": "I did not mention Jerusalem as the original post was about the Jordan Valley. \n\nThere are a few reasons why people settle in other areas. *One is that not everyone can afford to live in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Raanana, Haifa and Netanya. \n*Second is a more powerful one and although some people move there to prove a point and/or because Nefesh bNefesh and the government give financial benefits to move there. \n   -However part b of that is why should we not be able to settle in our own land? The area was once called Judea which seems to imply we have a stake there. Samaria, the Shomron, was also inhabited by Hebrew tribes. \n\nThe only area the Palestinians lived, if they are indeed the Philistines of the past, was around Gaza. If you remember the story of David and Goliath, who was from Gath in Gaza, it did not end well for the Philistines and it became our. \n\nThat there were no so called indigenous Palestinian peoples until 50 or so years ago is another question. \n  If you ask the majority of Arab Israelis they are a lot happier and more fulfilled living in Israel than Gaza which is ruled by Hamas, or even living under the rule of the West Bank. \n\nIsrael can not afford to give up more land if it leads to insecure borders. We already have areas where we are only km away from those who see nothing wrong with blasting mortar shells and incendiary kites over what is an international border.\n\nWhat damage would they cause if we lived across a boulevard? I prefer not to take up that challenge. Until we have a partner for peace there is no possibility for One State."
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                        "text": "I did not mention Jerusalem as the original post was about the Jordan Valley. \n\nThere are a few reasons why people settle in other areas. *One is that not everyone can afford to live in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Raanana, Haifa and Netanya. \n*Second is a more powerful one and although some people move there to prove a point and/or because Nefesh bNefesh and the government give financial benefits to move there. \n   -However part b of that is why should we not be able to settle in our own land? The area was once called Judea which seems to imply we have a stake there. Samaria, the Shomron, was also inhabited by Hebrew tribes. \n\nThe only area the Palestinians lived, if they are indeed the Philistines of the past, was around Gaza. If you remember the story of David and Goliath, who was from Gath in Gaza, it did not end well for the Philistines and it became our. \n\nThat there were no so called indigenous Palestinian peoples until 50 or so years ago is another question. \n  If you ask the majority of Arab Israelis they are a lot happier and more fulfilled living in Israel than Gaza which is ruled by Hamas, or even living under the rule of the West Bank. \n\nIsrael can not afford to give up more land if it leads to insecure borders. We already have areas where we are only km away from those who see nothing wrong with blasting mortar shells and incendiary kites over what is an international border.\n\nWhat damage would they cause if we lived across a boulevard? I prefer not to take up that challenge. Until we have a partner for peace there is no possibility for One State.",
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                        "text": "Alexa Raine, I agree that you always needs to be careful with generalisations.  And we indeed need to keep a unified Jerusalem and for security reasons never give up the Jordan Valley.  But you suggest that here is written we will give Jerusalem for peace.  Which I didn't read at all in the comments of Robin Silver-Zwiren.  Jerusalem needs to stay united clear.  The discussion about the history of the peace negotiations you give is interesting and we for sure have no partner for peace negotiations.  But Robin didn't state something else.  She and Joe Shapiro are very realistic.  Dreaming is the one state solution.  Apart from the fact that the more important threats to Israel are Iran and Hezbollah, there's is no money for one state.  How are you going to do this without creating an apartheid state and without damaging the amazing democracy in Israel?  How are you going to secure this with a faster growing Palestian population.  Do you want an Israel becoming in 20 years  a new Libanon?  There a majorty Christian state became a state under control of Hezbollah.  Sharon already realized the danger and that triggered the withdrawal from Gaza.  The withdrawal was problematic but necessary.  If you keep the Palestians in your state they will grow and create a huge security problem from inside which will lead on the long term to the distruction of the Jewish state and the complete loss of international support.  You are right the current Palestian leaders prefer to let suffer their people.  They do it because they believe that on the longer run they will outnumber Israel.  Israel had in its history a longtime problem with Egypt.  It was only solved when at both sides there were 2 leaders with courage and vision who put their people first and life above land.  Meanwhile Israel needs to chose the most effective solutions which for sure is not one state.  Two states is the solution but not realistic at this point.  So the currently the solution is probably to focus and keep strategical areas, fight for a unified Jerusalem, keep control over Hebron, keep the areas in the C-section where the settlers are massively present and invest in the people of Israel and in effective defensive military solutions to protect Israel.  But withdraw the settlers out the areas where they have nothing to see and certainly don't create new settlements or don't create a one state.  Israel can't manage this on the longer term."
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                        "text": "Alexa Raine, I agree that you always needs to be careful with generalisations.  And we indeed need to keep a unified Jerusalem and for security reasons never give up the Jordan Valley.  But you suggest that here is written we will give Jerusalem for peace.  Which I didn't read at all in the comments of Robin Silver-Zwiren.  Jerusalem needs to stay united clear.  The discussion about the history of the peace negotiations you give is interesting and we for sure have no partner for peace negotiations.  But Robin didn't state something else.  She and Joe Shapiro are very realistic.  Dreaming is the one state solution.  Apart from the fact that the more important threats to Israel are Iran and Hezbollah, there's is no money for one state.  How are you going to do this without creating an apartheid state and without damaging the amazing democracy in Israel?  How are you going to secure this with a faster growing Palestian population.  Do you want an Israel becoming in 20 years  a new Libanon?  There a majorty Christian state became a state under control of Hezbollah.  Sharon already realized the danger and that triggered the withdrawal from Gaza.  The withdrawal was problematic but necessary.  If you keep the Palestians in your state they will grow and create a huge security problem from inside which will lead on the long term to the distruction of the Jewish state and the complete loss of international support.  You are right the current Palestian leaders prefer to let suffer their people.  They do it because they believe that on the longer run they will outnumber Israel.  Israel had in its history a longtime problem with Egypt.  It was only solved when at both sides there were 2 leaders with courage and vision who put their people first and life above land.  Meanwhile Israel needs to chose the most effective solutions which for sure is not one state.  Two states is the solution but not realistic at this point.  So the currently the solution is probably to focus and keep strategical areas, fight for a unified Jerusalem, keep control over Hebron, keep the areas in the C-section where the settlers are massively present and invest in the people of Israel and in effective defensive military solutions to protect Israel.  But withdraw the settlers out the areas where they have nothing to see and certainly don't create new settlements or don't create a one state.  Israel can't manage this on the longer term.",
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                        "text": "Sharp and rightful analysis Joe Shapiro.  Israel may not put land above life.  As you stated correctly the state budget is limited and needs primarily to go to the well being of the people of Israel and the defense of Israel against the more bigger danger of Iran and Hezbollah.  Of course also the Palestians present a danger, but putting settlements in the middle of nowhere in Palestian territory against a huge protection cost and soldiers occupation is indeed not smart and not effective."
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                        "text": "Sharp and rightful analysis Joe Shapiro.  Israel may not put land above life.  As you stated correctly the state budget is limited and needs primarily to go to the well being of the people of Israel and the defense of Israel against the more bigger danger of Iran and Hezbollah.  Of course also the Palestians present a danger, but putting settlements in the middle of nowhere in Palestian territory against a huge protection cost and soldiers occupation is indeed not smart and not effective.",
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                        "text": "I object to two of your statements. \"People with very limited loyalty to the State\" - that's a very broad and harsh generalization and I have no idea on what this is based. Thd people in the Gaza strip are passionately pro Israel and committed to the State and the land - that's why they live there. And secondly the idea that when Palestinians find free movement they will suddenly decide to make peace is naive and frankly dangerous - they were given Gaza and turned into Hamastan, they were offered 97\u0025 of the West Bank and refused it  again and again. There will never be peace until the generation is taught to accept that we are here to stay, with the settlements on our land and that a compromise has to be reached. If we give up that strop of land we are totally vulnerable because Hamas will walk jn and take over.  And what about Jerusalem? Give them that as well? With Abbas inciting riots over Al Aksa there is no way there will be peace by giving them land. Re education and security is the priority now. We tried peace talks - it didn't work. And that was under successive Labour govts as well I may add."
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                        "text": "I object to two of your statements. \"People with very limited loyalty to the State\" - that's a very broad and harsh generalization and I have no idea on what this is based. Thd people in the Gaza strip are passionately pro Israel and committed to the State and the land - that's why they live there. And secondly the idea that when Palestinians find free movement they will suddenly decide to make peace is naive and frankly dangerous - they were given Gaza and turned into Hamastan, they were offered 97\u0025 of the West Bank and refused it  again and again. There will never be peace until the generation is taught to accept that we are here to stay, with the settlements on our land and that a compromise has to be reached. If we give up that strop of land we are totally vulnerable because Hamas will walk jn and take over.  And what about Jerusalem? Give them that as well? With Abbas inciting riots over Al Aksa there is no way there will be peace by giving them land. Re education and security is the priority now. We tried peace talks - it didn't work. And that was under successive Labour govts as well I may add.",
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                        "text": "Robin Silver-Zwiren almost every single one of the settlements outside the Bloc with the exception of the Megillot Regional Council have nothing to do with war and peace. They are there for only one reason, to stop any transfer of land even if there was to be a partner in the future for ideological reasons which put land above life. No Democracy can tolerate the existence of such places. Beyond that we have to have extra soldiers in Judea and Samaria because of the presence of settlers so far away from the green line. These are soldiers that could be dealing with Hezbollah or the Iranian threat but instead are stuck protecting places surrounded by 3 of 4 sides with hostile Arab villagers so that people with very limited loyalty to the state can stay in their homes. With the money it costs to protect these places we could pay for homes to be built for them within the green line. The cost of protecting an entire family and maintaining and improving life in the settlements costs around 150,000 shekels a year per family. With a multi year investment we can move these people elsewhere. And yes when Palestinians find freer movement, more land to farm on and build on  maybe the peace movement among Palestinians will grow. But the status quo isn't working because we have people trying to undermine Jewish self determination and using the government to do so by setting facts on the ground. I'm Orthodox myself and I strongly object to this kind of movement which puts land before life. Everyone knows peace isn't happening tomorrow. But it's up to all of us to make sure it can happen in the future without turning us into a Binational state with a Palestinian majority."
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                        "text": "Robin Silver-Zwiren almost every single one of the settlements outside the Bloc with the exception of the Megillot Regional Council have nothing to do with war and peace. They are there for only one reason, to stop any transfer of land even if there was to be a partner in the future for ideological reasons which put land above life. No Democracy can tolerate the existence of such places. Beyond that we have to have extra soldiers in Judea and Samaria because of the presence of settlers so far away from the green line. These are soldiers that could be dealing with Hezbollah or the Iranian threat but instead are stuck protecting places surrounded by 3 of 4 sides with hostile Arab villagers so that people with very limited loyalty to the state can stay in their homes. With the money it costs to protect these places we could pay for homes to be built for them within the green line. The cost of protecting an entire family and maintaining and improving life in the settlements costs around 150,000 shekels a year per family. With a multi year investment we can move these people elsewhere. And yes when Palestinians find freer movement, more land to farm on and build on  maybe the peace movement among Palestinians will grow. But the status quo isn't working because we have people trying to undermine Jewish self determination and using the government to do so by setting facts on the ground. I'm Orthodox myself and I strongly object to this kind of movement which puts land before life. Everyone knows peace isn't happening tomorrow. But it's up to all of us to make sure it can happen in the future without turning us into a Binational state with a Palestinian majority.",
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