The Dep of Education has no business trying to dictate legla procedures for universities, especially when it apparently does not understand basic legal concepts.
- Corinne Cooper · Top Commenter · Highland High School (Albuquerque, New Mexico)What is missing from this post, and even more notable by its absence in the comments, is the assumption in rape, unlike any other crime (but perhaps arson), that the victim of the crime will lie about it. Despite the Rolling Stone story, there is very, very little evidence of rampant false accusations of rape.
Yet even among legal professionals, we see people argue that false accusations are rampant and assumptions that, when a woman says that she was raped, there is "no evidence" of rape. Testimony is evidence, even when given by a woman. Most of the men posting here seem to operate under the assumption that women are rarely raped and often accuse men of raping them. There is no similar assumption about men who say that they are raped. Even the phrase, "claimed they were raped" is rife with disbelief. We do not say of other as...sault victims, "you CLAIM that you were assaulted" as a matter of practice.
So when one argues that a 51% "more likely than not" standard is inappropriate, have we accounted for the thumb on the scale that these assumptions about women play in the decision-making process? Remember that the "more likely than not" standard is being applied in the school's application of its conduct rules, not a criminal conviction. Do you argue that the "clear and convincing" standard should apply to all accused of violating university rules and standards? If not, why the inconsistency?
Remember also that in the Vanderbilt case, people did not come to the aid of the unconscious woman being carried from a party. They did not come to the aid of the unconscious woman being carried into the dorm room. They did not come to her aid when she was found naked and unconscious outside the room. Only because the rapists stupidly posted photographs of their crime were they convicted. In many cases where there is physical evidence BOTH of intoxication and of intercourse, the woman is disbelieved, even under a 51% standard. See More- Angus Maldives · Top Commenter · Temple UniversityOur entire justice system is predicated upon the notion that we don't punish people for an accusation. It is possible to believe a woman is telling the truth about her assault, and at the same time admit that there are benefits to following a just process.
Colleges are ill equipped to handle a matter that should be in the hands of the District Attorney. A college's responsibility should be to cooperate fully with police and make sure that it does everything it can to be open and transparent. Upon conviction or a plea deal, then it should take disciplinary action against a student. - Rigoberto SanchezYou couldn't be more wrong. Rape "victims", more accurately , complainants, do lie about being raped. Talk to any public defender in any large urban jurisdiction where the court has set up a special courtroom to hear nothing but rape preliminary hearings and you will find that women routinely come in on hearing day and tell the court, with no threat of having filed a false police report charge hanging over their heads mind, that they made the whole thing up because they were mad, had buyer's remorse, found incriminating texts on boyfriend's phone, the list goes on. To their credit, the prosecutors usually have questioned these recanters vigorously before the hearing when their stories just don't pass the laugh test. Rape-and here I'm talking about "campus sexual assault' where alcohol involved- is an easy charge to make and a difficult one too defend against. To find someone guilty, and make no mistake about it that's exactly what a finding that an accused violated the school's disciplinery code by sexual assault is, a guilty verdict with many of the attendant adverse consequences-by a preponderance of evidence standard is a violation of fundamental due process.
- Lynn Rathbun · Top Commenter · Ithaca, New York
- Waldo ForeverWhat saddens me about this article is the resurgence of that old, old trope: that the public reputation of a man is hands-down more important than the private trauma of a woman. "So what if a girl may have gotten raped," it seems to say, "we have to think about this boy's future career!"
Let's note that (1) the real problem is that - culturally speaking - we've extended adolescence well beyond where we should, and more so in wealthier families. Many, many students get to college these days without having learned social lessons they should have picked up when they were 12 or 13; they have no sense of themselves as adults in a community, and so they have to take a crash course in adulthood with the school as a reluctant and resistant foster parent. That is a role colleges and universities are spectacularly unfit to hold.
Let's n...ote that (2) the secondary problem is that we all seem to believe that consenting to drink alcohol is the same as consenting to have sex, at least for a woman. That cute cultural fiction - as Professor Stone's own example demonstrates - is the excuse that causes most of the ambiguity.
So, the easiest approach to solving an endemic problem of campus rape in this perverse cultural context is to remove the excuse: make drug or alcohol consumption (on or off campus) a laxly enforced but suspendible/expellable offense. That way campuses are free to look the other way if students want to imbibe responsibly (as campuses are so good at doing anyway). But if an accusation of rape surfaces the problem becomes clearer. If the case is ambiguous because intoxicants were involved, then all parties (male and female) go home for a semester to discuss adulthood with their parents. If intoxicants were involved and a fraternity was serving them, that frat is effectively dissolved for a semester as all of its members get sent home. And if intoxicants weren't involved, well... that's just rape, and it can be turned over to the police.
If campuses are forced to act in loco parentis for over-aged adolescents, so be it, but if so they have to put their foot down where needed to keep the environment safe. See More - Sheila Rajan · Top Commenter · WCC Madras and Curtin University Perth"extremely difficult questions arise about the meaning of "consent" and "unwanted." Is it measured by the subjective state of mind of the "complainant" or by the reasonable understanding of the "accused"? How are the participants, and the institutions, to know whether in any given interaction the accused crossed the line?"
I don't understand the difficulty. If they are drunk, they do not have the capacity to consent. Are you now going to microscopically examine what "drunk" means?- LaGretia Copp · Hays, KansasI am not a lawyer, so I am not sure if the phrases he is using are standard legal phrases when dealing with this issue. What struck me in the way that passage is worded is that the complainant is assumed to have a "subjective state of mind" while the accused is assumed to have a "reasonable understanding" of the situation. Can't the complainant have a "reasonable understanding" that they are being assaulted, and the accused a subjective belief that they were invited to assault the victim.
- Austin Serafini · Top Commenter · The Ohio State University
- Larry Ladski · Top Commenter · New York University
- Larry Ladski · Top Commenter · New York UniversityRape should be kept at: Violent force or one party incapacitating another (such as as date rape drug) for the purpose of having sex. But, if it's a drinking party and a drunk guy scores with a drunk girl, then either both raped each other or it wasn't rape.
- Marc Sylvestre · Top CommenterPaolo Mugnaini first of all people can be drinking and give consent, period.
Secondly, sexual assault is touching without consent, so yes a female can sexually assault a man (and I'm guessing it happens a lot). Rape is penetration without consent with any foreign object, so certainly a woman can rape a man, drunk or no.
That's where the whole affirmative consent thing will fall apart, when a woman is charged with sexual assault or rape by former boyfriend who can say "I didn't say YES and she did it anyway"
- Sue Huybensz · Top Commenter · State University of New York College at CortlandI have a problem with worrying about the 2% of false reports of sexual assault, when 80% of sexual assault criminals are NEVER CHARGED and are still walking free. Let's not put the cart before the horse here.
- Christopher John Halkides · Top Commenter · UNC WilmingtonThe 2% value you quoted is at the bottom of the estimates, and it is open to serious question. 8-10% is probably closer to the truth.Reply · · February 3 at 7:02am
- Sue Huybensz · Top Commenter · State University of New York College at CortlandChristopher John Halkides Well, then let us just allow the 80% of criminals walk free! Also I think that the higher numbers you quote are for rapes in the general population, not on campus.Reply · · February 3 at 10:01am
- Justin Bowen · Top Commenter · Commerce Township, MichiganI suppose you're also in favor of racial profiling and the death penalty, yes? After all, both are measures aimed at reducing overall crime, regardless of the consequences to a statistically and numerically small number of innocent people (who, in the matter being discussed here and in these two that I just brought up, are almost always males), that have proven to be effective at reducing crime.Reply · · February 5 at 12:23pm
- Paul GandyThe UVA case is clear evidence that campus assault is the result of trumped up BS like this.
- Robin Smith · Top Commenter
- Caroline Orr · Top Commenter · Richmond, VirginiaPaul Gandy: And your statement is clear evidence that you have no idea what you are talking about.
We have data on this -- scientific evidence, not anecdotes. It's not a matter of subjective opinion whether campus sexual assault is highly prevalent; it's a matter of objective evidence that has been repeatedly assessed and verified across academic, criminal, and medical settings.
... Although I suppose it's not surprising that someone with a Gasdsen flag for their FB picture would have trouble differentiating fact from bullsh!t.
- Charles Maynard · The Catholic University of AmericaBucolic campuses and the trappings of academia do not change our rule of law -- insensibly, Stone would seem to suggest that when the next attempted sexual assault (or worse) occurs the student should call the Dean or the Department of Education, instead of 911. "The Department should set a clear -- and sensible -- standard for what counts as sexual assault," falsely presumes that the Department of Education has somehow been imbued with the authority to define, interpret, and enforce the law differently than or in lieu of the local authorities (i.e., the Police). Rightfully, we, as law-abiding citizens, are expected to report crimes, real or suspected, to our local Police. When, during the course of their investigation, they notify the University of suspected criminal activity, the University may then take whatever action they deem appropriate. It is not the reverse, and never has been. Just as one does not look to the University to arrest, try, or convict a student accused of attempted murder, one should not look to the University in cases of sexual assault.
- Lynn Rathbun · Top Commenter · Ithaca, New YorkUnder Title IX, the DOE has been imbued with the authority. I agree that most cases belong in the criminal justice system but the university has a mandate to be involved.Reply · · February 3 at 8:05pm
- Thai Angst · Top Commenter · Mind your own business"Some people say that, because such actions are crimes, colleges and universities should not attempt to adjudicate the issues, but should simply turn these cases over to the criminal justice system. I do not agree"
.......until my daughter is raped. When it involves MY family, what I want from each and every one of you is a hard-target search of every gas station, residence, warehouse, farmhouse, henhouse, outhouse and doghouse in the area. Checkpoints go up at fifteen miles. Your fugitive's name is ....... - Dennis Burgard · Top Commenter · Jacksonville, North CarolinaPlease visit SAEACT.com. This page is dedicated to the first law in this nation that allows representation in a college disciplinary hearing. It was founded in North Carolina, and is being looked at seriously in other states. I have a great deal of knowledge about the disciplinary hearings, and the bottom line is this. If the university wants you to be guilty, you will be guilty. Thus the need for legal representation. An 18-22 year old student in simply incapable of representing themselves in these kangaroo courts. Furthermore, I find it ironic that the current focus on sexual assault is couched in Title IX, which was designed to allow equal access to college for women in the 70's. Now, we have a university system that has become hostile to men, and has resulted in most colleges sporting a 60% + female student population. At historically black colleges, women may outnumber men 2-1. The majority of college professors are female as well. And we wonder why men seem to be fading from the workforce in America?
